Hola! I'm Suzy, and welcome to the Wander World School and Slow Family Travel Podcast, where we discuss the stories, logistics, and finances of long-term traveling families and the multitude of ways to learn and educate along the way. Today, I'm joined by Benefce and Trisha from the Rhythm in Rome Podcast. On their podcast, they share their diverse perspectives on travel through the lens of being people of color. They have traveled extensively, lived abroad, and raised travel-loving kids to adulthood.

They offer tips for traveling with teens and adult kids and how to involve older kids in travel. They also provide their advice on working through the emotions and thoughts that can come with new and possibly uncomfortable travel experiences. This is such a great conversation. So, welcome to the show.

Benef: Thanks for having us. I'm Benefce, or Benef for short. And I'm here with my co-host, Trisha. So, I have two children. They are older now. My son is a junior—is he a junior in college? No. And my daughter is a senior in high school.

Trisha: Hi everyone!

Benef: I have three children, and they are adults. My husband and I are empty nesters. And I have a 37—no, she's 38, I think, now. My son will be 25, and we have a 23-year-old.

Suzy: I'm excited to hear a little bit more about your family travels from before and what they look like now. But I'd also love to backtrack even to the beginning, such as those early travel memories or how your upbringing shaped your travel philosophies once you did have a family, or now as an empty nester or almost empty nester.

Benef: I'm an only child. Our travel looked like us driving to visit other family. We didn't do like a whole lot of grand family vacations. I—we went to, like, Arizona, Puerto Rico. We did go to Canada once as a family, but it really—it was to visit other family. So, I didn't actually get out of the country, aside from Canada, until high school—my high school French trip. It was the first time I had been on a long-haul flight anywhere. It wasn't really until much, much later in the military that travel became something that I wanted to do on my own.

How about you, Trisha?

Trecia: So, I am too an only child. And I guess my origin story really started from the womb, honestly. My family is originally from Central America, from Belize. So, we have always traveled to go stateside. Although I don't remember it, my mother has told me when I was three months old was actually my first flight. I flew to Germany because my father was in the army, and he was stationed there. So, when we lived in Germany for about six months, my mother actually got homesick, so she moved back to the stateside. And as far as I can remember, we've always traveled. The biggest travel memory that I can remember was just before I was a teenager, at 12, when myself, my twin cousins, and my other cousin—so, four of us—along with my aunt, took us on a pretty much backpack trip through Belize and through Mexico.

Once you did start to grow your family, what did travel look like at that point, and how did that change based on the kids' ages and stages?

My husband and I were both in the army, and so we both retired. He did 30 years, I did 20 years. All of our travel was because we were living around the country in the United States in different places, and because we were living in Asia, we had au pairs from Germany, from Thailand, from South Africa, and one more, Sweden. So, we would go and visit them after they had left our family. So, my husband and I would take vacation, and we would take the kids with us, but they were always going to a public school. So, we did have to navigate our vacations around their schooling and also, like, our availability for taking leave together at the same time. So, I'm the planner in the family. I love to plan vacations. I enjoy, like, doing the research. And so, I did all of that, and I would structure it so that we had definitely things to do, but not all hours of the day planned. So, I would plan like just a relaxed day, like, "This is a day where we're just gonna hang out by the pool," or, "We're just gonna go to the beach." And the kids really enjoy it. They love to travel; they were following us along. It wasn't until they were adolescents that they started to have more of an opinion about, like, what they might want to do on the trip. And that's where I might get some feedback as to if they really wanted to do this particular thing, particularly when it came to walking around. They were like, "I don't want to just walk around aimlessly. Where are we going? Is there an actual goal to this?"

Suzy: I'm really happy to hear about these experiences with traveling with teens and young adults because I'm not there yet. I speak to a lot of families that have younger kids, but we all wonder at what point does this change and when do they have more opinions about things? So, Tricia, I'm curious what your experience has been with traveling throughout the years.

Having traveled myself, it's always been something that's been a part of what we do. Travel was number one for me. I knew that I wanted those experiences for my children. Initially, being younger, we started on mostly road trips because those were more economical for us at the time. But as they got older, particularly wanting them to travel internationally, we really plugged into what the school had to offer. We were very fortunate to live in a community where the high school saw value in travel for the children. So, whether it was through history class or whether it was through music and band, I actually took my first trip with, at the time, my teenage son the summer before his junior year. We traveled for two and a half weeks; we did seven cities along with his band. It was a goodwill trip that they do every year within the community. And so, this particular school was part of a program that took over 200 kids from the area to travel to these seven cities and be able to play their music. So, it was really, really cool with the kids being able to play and sing in these historic monuments and churches and parks, and then everyone being able to come out. What was really neat is to see how the international community was there for these children because they knew that this concert was coming, and it was a yearly thing. Also, my youngest child, Julia, she also had that opportunity to go with her history class to Amsterdam, Brussels, and Paris. That was her first foray into travel, and she did not want Mom to go; she's very independent. So, I let her go with her class. My oldest was an athlete and actually ran track and played basketball year-round, but she traveled through athletics.

The opportunity to combine travel with an educational or a group activity—I really wanted to go to big cities in Europe when I was in early high school, and my parents didn't want to go back to cities they had already visited. So, I did a school trip to London, Paris, and Rome. I remember it so clearly because it was an opportunity to exert some independence. And then I was so motivated; I wanted to sign up for a swim trip, and I saved up. I worked hard. I think I went after junior year. It was to Australia and New Zealand. So, it was not cheap, and competing and swimming in New Zealand in our summer but their winter—it was so memorable. And so, I love that you speak to where sometimes kids get an opportunity, maybe not with the family, but that is very developmentally appropriate to have these opportunities, especially if it doesn't maybe align with what you as a parent would choose to spend your time. It's like, "Hey, this could be just a thing my kid goes and does."

Benef: My son had an opportunity to travel with Rustic Pathways. So, we were living in Japan at the time, and he was able to go with his school and Rustic Pathways to Tanzania. And they worked in the community there to build part of a school. They got to connect through playing soccer with the local children. They did all kinds of activities like traditional cooking, and he loves to cook. So, if he chose to do that again... just joining a group on his own, and they went to Costa Rica. They were building something in the community and again through soccer. My daughter was less so wanting to do that, but she did just do a two-week program in Ireland with the University College of Dublin there. So, that was a summer program that they come to introduce you to the college. So, it looks like she may be going there. So, that was a lovely program for her.

I'm curious, Benef, you mentioned you've lived in a bunch of different countries during your military career. And I was also in Germany for two years, a long time ago when I was working there. I'm curious what your perspective was about living in those countries. Obviously, very much US-centric, but I was like living in the German community and participating in things. I'm wondering how that shaped your family, especially your kids, like growing up in different countries and how you integrated between, "Okay, I have this job; I have to go do this like American thing," but also living in other communities and trying to soak that up while you're there.

We lived in Japan at two different times, and then also two different times in Korea, different locations each time. We had that safety net of living on base, but that stressor of having to figure out all the things wasn't there. But it allowed me to really get out. The first time we lived in Korea, like I was all over Seoul. We were right in the middle of Seoul. And I dragged the kids everywhere. When we were in Japan, we were always traveling. So, we would take trips and drive different places, or we would fly.

And so, I encouraged us to get out, even if we're just taking a local train a couple of stops away, to get out in the community and see things. And that was really nice about the U.S. military community—they were big on exploring. Like, we were ambassadors for the United States. And so, we tried to go out and interact with the locals and reinforce positive American experiences or interactions with Americans. And so, I do think that the kids benefited from that because, you know, my son, he started taking Japanese; he's still taking Japanese in college. He loves the language; he loves the culture. My daughter just knows that she wants to go to school abroad. And so, I think that us trying to just engage throughout the community and the schools did a good job, too, of like going out and interacting with local schools. And so, they would go and spend a day with, like, a local school and see how they'd do school. We did a lot of festivals, so they got to see the traditions of the Koreans, of the Japanese. We did go to museums. I think that that piqued their interest for more, especially for my son, for wanting to travel on his own, for going into the hospitality industry. He knows that he wants to somehow work with travel. And, you know, for my daughter, for just wanting to get out of the United States and see other countries.

This is a great perspective that you carry because your kids did move around a lot growing up. I'm curious if you could share a little more about that. Because sometimes when I talk about us living in Spain or doing some long-term travel or moving abroad for a while, I get some questions around, like, stability for kids. And I always think, "Okay, stability is A: our family. We're a big part of their life, and we're there still, regardless of where we are." And then B: I have a lot of friends that grew up as military brats, you could say, and they are awesome. They have friends around the world; they just have a different perspective. And it doesn't mean that there weren't challenges with moving, especially by the adolescent years—I know that can get extra tricky—but I don't necessarily think that it's an overall loss to have had these unique experiences moving around.

Benef

I didn't—I moved one time, and that was, like, traumatic for me. So, I was concerned about what it was going to be like for them. I do think that the military community understands that just inherently. So, children are really quick to reach out and make friends. You got to cut the time short so that you're not spending seven months trying to make friends. And so, they became very adaptable, very flexible to different environments. I was worried about that, but honestly, they were fine.

The community piece is so important. You guys met through Paul, who's your other co-host on your podcast, Rhythm in Rome. And Trisha, you were not in the military growing up or like as an adult as well. Have you been in Texas the whole time, and have your kids then had a little bit of the opposite experience, being more in one place while they were growing up?

Trecia: I stated earlier, living in Belize, my parents were divorced when I was very young, when I was about four. And the reason why I moved: my mother sent me to Belize to live with my great-grandmother. Then, so she moved to Texas, to Houston. And then, I lived here for about—probably up until about ninth grade—moved back to New York and actually lived there, high school, and then part of college. And then, from that place, we moved back to Houston. So, having the back and forth and always being the new girl in school, I had a lot of changes throughout my upbringing as far as having to restart over. So, now being in Houston, we did stay put because I felt it was important that the children actually had roots, you know, and that they were able to go to school and they were able to, you know, have friends because I understood what it was to be that new person and trying to forge those relationships. So, I feel that that very much grounded me in wanting to be integrated into our community. But realizing that travel was still very much a part of my life, I needed to be able to bestow onto my children. So, that's why, yes, we took a lot of trips while living here, establishing a career here. We very much were planted here with our children.

Suzy: That's a good segue to the financial and logistical side of family travel. What jobs or what resources did you have that helped you fund travels?

Trecia: When my husband and I were both working, to be honest, we did not have a travel budget. We were just going to go and do whatever. We were making enough money that we didn't need to plan for it. And then when I retired, it took us several months to a year for that loss of income to really sink in. And so, we continued to just spend the same way. And then, a minute, we need to actually plan a little bit better. And this time, our kids are older, and we're not all staying in one room. And so, we're needing three different rooms. So, now it's like, "Hold on now; these rooms are not inexpensive." And in fact, our financial planner, she was like, "Okay, with your retirement and then my husband was working again, are you not making ends meet here? Like, why are you in the red each month? I want you to go look for the last year of your credit card bills and figure out what is happening." And when I did that, it's the travel because we were taking the trip, and I was like, "All right, yeah." Like, these are the things that our financial planner's like, "Stop it with that crap!" Like, no, you need to save up in advance for these trips. I've had to really check myself with that and to realize that if we're gonna travel as a family now, it's more rooms involved, more plane tickets—just like everything is more expensive.

Suzy: I think that is the reality of kids aging is that actually, it does not always get cheaper, especially in the young adult phases. I can relate to my early career being a solid paycheck; you just know it's going to be there. You don't necessarily think about the budgeting piece until, "Wait, I need to actually look at this more in depth." But how about you?

Trecia: I live to travel. It's always been, you know, kind of go broke or go home when it comes to travel, at least in my mind. But seriously, how we afforded it is group travel was always a big thing for us. Even now, when we do go abroad, particularly when we go to a new place, I will take the opportunity to do a group travel because it's just, first of all, it's more manageable, and you're able to make payments, if you will. So, it's not just one lump sum. It's just being more economical in the sense where you're sharing those costs of the tour with others. It also had the piece of something I look forward to, something that everyone can get involved in. So, this is what we're doing. It's kept me organized as far as itineraries and different things in that nature. Now that our children are older, my children have continued to travel. Again, my son still travels for music because he does gigs. My youngest actually just got back from Japan with her boyfriend, and they had a two-week trip there. She's traveled on her own to Dublin, England, and all these other places with friends. Those have just been trips that they've organized on their own where they've done their own itineraries. So, I feel like I've done my job because they've graduated from this group travel aspect. Again, my oldest daughter has not done a lot of traveling abroad, and I've actually traveled more with her as an adult than I have with my younger two. I just feel like she didn't have the opportunity when she was younger just because of where we were in life, maybe financially. So, I feel like I owe it to her to do things, but not to mention, she's a lot of fun, so we have a good time together. And, and now we do not pay for our adult children to go anywhere. If you want to go, "But this is how much," but we'd love for you to come, but if you can't make it, we'll get you next time. So, it is definitely cut off. It is.

Benef

Was that transition really when they started making their own money, or how did that come up?

Trecia: It actually happened organically, really. When we started getting into that advising mode as opposed to parenting in that sense, and when they were asking our opinions, we felt that with the independence should come financially as well. They needed to know specifically how much this was going to cost in relation to how they live and whether or not that was going to be feasible for them. So, I just felt like it was just a natural step.

Suzy: ...sort of navigating through that right now because my son and his girlfriend, they're in their junior year in college, and they need to start thinking about how they're going to pay for all of that. So, we're trying to help them out, you know, because they do like to travel.

I could see this enthusiasm as they're starting to do this on their own and exert that independence, but maybe some of the parental nervousness. I think that's good to hear that evolution of how it does pay off to have those experiences together as a family. I do know that if my parents offer to pay, I will be more likely to go. So, I'm taking that into account. But yeah, it all depends on the dynamics. You are two of the three co-hosts for the Rhythm in Rome podcast. On your show, you explore cultural diversity through the lens of travel. How did your podcast start, and what have your favorite conversations been between you two and Paul, your other co-host?

Benef

It started because Paul and Trisha had the idea of a podcast, and as they reconnected and started talking about it, it started to become a reality. We love travel, but we don't want to talk about the best hotels or the best tour to do. We wanted to make it different somehow. And with all of us being people of color and living in just different countries and having those interactions with people that their culture is different and we're just not familiar. So, we bring these misconceptions that we have about Japanese, Korean, German, Swedish, and then how do we navigate that and, like, the crazy things that can follow when you bring your own personal misconceptions.

And how about you, Trisha?

Trecia: It was very important to us that we were able to bring who we were individually and our backgrounds. And I think that's what I enjoy very much about our dynamic as we're going through this journey in our podcast—to also talk about travel, but now talking about culture and really inserting who we are as people and our opinions. That's what I love about our podcast, and I just love that synergy that we have with each other and how we're able to bring out these really great experiences or not-so-great experiences and being able to talk about it.

Benef

The conversations can be so important. And to mention, Paul is living in France for a while, right?

For about five years.

Suzy: but has no children, whereas you bring the dynamic of you have families and have lived abroad but are currently in the US, so very different perspectives. And you bring up representation, representing diverse communities, especially in travel. When people want to travel, they might be thinking, "I want to do this to experience other cultures," maybe ones that they can't really get to know very well in their home base. They want to experience things that are different than what they're familiar with. Tell me more about what representation in travel means to each of you.

Trecia: The interesting thing is, and Suzy mentioned it, really, is just that we travel because we want to be able to experience other cultures. For folks who are Caucasian or white, that's what they're doing. We already have that instilled in us because of the different cultures that make us up. Because I'm Belize American, Benefce is Afghan and black, and Paul is Jamaican American. So, we have that. We too want to experience other cultures, which is interesting enough. We are similar in our quest for wanting to learn more, but I feel that there really is no difference in our goal. It's how we approach it, right? We already know that we carry these preconceptions already. So, I think that's where it differs—is because of our experiences and where we come from culturally, that's how we approach this difference. And I think that's where our podcast meets in those discussions.

Suzy: That's such an important perspective. My mom is from Afghanistan, and my dad is black. I identify myself as just American. Like, I didn't, unfortunately, grow up immersed in Afghan culture, and so I do strive to understand that better, and I do strive to understand black history better. But I think of myself as American. And so, when I go and travel, I am identifying myself as American first, but because I do have some melanin, people are like, "Well, but there's more. Can't you just be American?" "Where are you actually from?" They always want to know the ethnicities, the race behind who I am. I just find that interesting because I didn't really understand that people have that curiosity until just recently going to Ireland and wandering around and not seeing a whole lot of people of color. So, then when I did see someone, I was like, "Well, where are they from?" Like, I automatically thought, "Well, they can't be from Ireland, clearly, because Ireland has white people." And I was like, "You know what? I do the same thing." So, now I have more grace for people that are like, "Where are you from?" instead of getting irritated with that question that has been repeated, questioned every time I meet somebody new. Traveling and actually recognizing that I do the same thing—I realize that because I've written a workbook of questions to go along with our book, Staying While Traveling in a Crazy World—I took the time to answer those questions, and then I realized that I was doing the exact same thing. I wouldn't have even had the opportunity to reflect on that if I hadn't been answering the questions that we wrote.

I want to ask in a moment, how do we stay sane? But just to touch real quick on one thing that I've thought a lot about is our home base is Denver, Colorado, which I feel very lucky that we do have very diverse communities. My kids go to a dual language school when we're here with people from all different backgrounds. And my kids are friends with people that I definitely did not have an opportunity to befriend in a small town growing up. So, I'm like, "We are in a place where we are getting to see how different people live," but I still feel like it's through this lens, this window of being in the US. And that is where I rationalize my desire to travel outside the US is to see it from the perspective of wherever we are. I love the melting pot aspect of parts of the US, but it still is here, if that makes sense. I get lots of thoughts, especially with some of the countries and cities that have anti-tourism—is how to be an ethical and kind traveler and tourist in other places. Do they want us there? It's just—it could get really complex to think about all these factors. So, I'm wondering how you've thought through some of this.

Trecia

Suzy, you bring up a really good point about the fact that even though you may be in a diverse community or an area where your children have these opportunities to meet people of different races and cultures and different things, we still have that filter of being in America. And our children, they live in this bubble, particularly if you're out in the suburbs. You live in this bubble where things are a bit... It's very smooth; it's very planned; it's very toned down for your children. And I think to a certain degree it needs to be, particularly when they're younger. But I feel that as your children grow older, they do need to experience that, at least to where they can comprehend. And even if you're there as a guide with them, it is important that they see how others live. Because when that happens to them, they find out, just like we do, very quickly that people are people the same everywhere. People are still working; they're living; they're going to school; they're relating; they're taking advantage of opportunities; they're failing; you know, they're making mistakes. Once they see that, it brings a whole new perspective on their upbringing and their thought process and how the world works. It's global now. So, there are other people over there. So, that's what Benef and I have awakened in our children, and I think in any parents that want their child to experience travel and cultures and different things, is that they're never the same. And you notice the difference in that. And you notice the quest and the lust for wanting to connect with people no matter who they are. The love of travel and our love for people has definitely been grounded in the world that we create for our children.

Benef: You're right, like locally, if I go to a festival, it's maybe the highlights of that culture. Whereas if we're in that country, we're seeing the day to day. And you do learn that, overall, the majority of people want very similar things. They want to live happy, healthy lives surrounded by family and friends and people they care about. And they want to live in safe communities. And it just does help level the playing field, even though at the same time, the world is big and beautiful, it is also complex.

Benef

So that ties into the book you mentioned, How to Stay Safe While Traveling in a Crazy World. So, how do we stay safe?

We decided to have this book to complement our podcast because of the lens that we take with travel and the cultural diversity. So, it's the mental part of it. How do we interact with people when we are going to some place that's unfamiliar? We might be a little bit nervous about it—the cultural differences. We don't know the language. How do we prepare for that? And so, that's what the book aims to do with structure. And we use the acronym ROAM. ROAM—and it ties in nicely to our name of our podcast. But the first thing we need to do is recognize our misconceptions. That we do have them, and where are they coming from? Because it's going to be different for each person, but a lot of it is through American media, maybe through schools, through our families, our friends. So, we know that we have them, then we can write them down or be thinking about them when we go somewhere to be like, "Are they accurate or are they inaccurate?" Most likely, some aspect is going to be inaccurate, but just know that they're there. And then, once we get to where we're going, observing the differences, because that's the first thing that usually hits us in the face—how everything is different, and that's usually what causes the most anxiety. So, if we're ready to observe them, we know that there's gonna be differences, then we can also be prepared for that, too, and just take it all in, and accept that the A part—there might be clashes with just the vastness, depending on how different the culture is. For Americans, the further east that you travel, the culture tends to get very, very different. And so, there could be clashes, and just accept that that might be the case, and to know that we might need support, whether it's from family, whether it's from friends. And then finally, because you had talked about the similarities of us as human beings, is to maximize those similarities and really look for them. I like people want what's best for their family, and they want to be happy, and they want to engage in community. They want to have good meals; they want to laugh. We all have some sort of spirituality, even though the religion might be different. And so, if we look for those things, then that's where we can connect as humans, despite all the differences that we've already observed, or the fact that there might be some things that are so different that we just aren't going to agree on them. What can we agree on? How are we similar as humans? And so, the book lays out, like, a framework for how to navigate these things.

Suzy: Giving us a framework allows us to then plan trips or take trips to places and move through some of those uncomfortable feelings at times and gives us something to look for that allows us to be who we are still, because we're still humans imperfectly as well, but also with some awareness to open up our minds and be gracious for the people and the places that we're privileged enough to travel to. How do we keep advocating for what is important to us while also staying sane while traveling?

Trecia: I think the most important thing is being able to recognize when something may be a trigger for you. If you identify it, then talk about steps on how you're going to deal with that if you're put into that situation. So, there is a little bit of planning that goes along with that. But I think more importantly, we have to remember that we are all human. When we travel, that this is just another person trying to understand, and don't take this personal offense to that. So, when traveling, recognizing when you may have some anxiety and having tips or things that might be able to calm you—whether it be affirmations, whether it be writing down your feelings—because you can manifest those in the moment if you're planning, right? You can manifest that, and then you're able to calm yourself down so that if you're faced with that experience, you're able to move forward through it.

And also, do the research before traveling to the country so that you can prepare for surprises or to not be as surprised. Especially if it's a country where human rights maybe are not the same as they are in the United States, or women's rights are different. And so, you might know that you're going to have to dress a certain way—arms covered, legs covered—and to not be offended by that if you know in advance that to be respectful in their country, that I might have to adjust my behavior a little bit, even though it's hot and I don't want to wear pants. But, you know, it's not my country. I'm still American in this instance, but I just want to make sure that I'm not taking my Americanness and my individualism to the extreme on the trip itself.

Trecia

The group that I use when I do my group travel, it's actually a student travel group, but they also have adult tours, and it's passports.com. I have traveled with them several times, and I've been doing it now since 2001. I am a leader in a sense, and then I will actually take a group of friends or colleagues and organize a trip that way. But what they also offer is if you are a single traveler or it's your family, you can buy into that group trip. So, if there's a trip that's already going, you can actually feed into this trip, depending on wherever you want to go. So, that is actually a very economical way of traveling, particularly if you're thinking of going abroad.

Benef: To add that as your children age, to include them more and more in the planning process so that they learn what is involved, the costs involved, how to save in advance. But then they're having some input into the trip, and they get to do the things they want to do; they have buy-in. I'm a big proponent of having the kids do a presentation. I love that idea. I've seen that more and more apparent when they're thinking of where they're going to go on their vacations is that they have each child prepare a slideshow or they color photos or whatever that is. That in itself is sometimes just half of the adventure of deciding. They have to come up with an itinerary, how much it's going to cost, how you're going to get there, what's the flight. It really does cause this excitement. But more importantly, it's educating your children on what it takes to travel.

Trecia

We are known as Rhythm in Rome or Rhythm Rome BPT, which is our first initials: B'enef, Paul, and Trecia on Instagram, on Facebook, as well as TikTok and LinkedIn. We do have a website, RhythmInRome.com, that does have all the information for our YouTube channel, for how to find our podcast, how to purchase our book—whether it's a print copy or an ebook