Suzy: Welcome to the Wander Worldschool podcast. I'm Suzy, a travel-loving money nerd, mom of two, and our family lives between Spain and Colorado and soon Japan. On this show, we discuss the stories, logistics, and finances of traveling families and the many ways to learn along the way. Today we get to know Dara and Melpo. Before we jump into your summer camp offering, why don't you introduce yourself?
Dara Epstein: Hi, Suzy. Thank you so much for having us here today. I'm Dara. I have a nice husband and two sweet children who are three and five. I started my early years as an opera singer, so that brought me all around the world starting pretty young. From there, I ended up nannying in different places where I lived and found that as something that brought me a lot of joy, and I love working with kids. I ended up starting my first company, Smart Sitting, where we work with families and caregivers. We offer childcare benefits at corporations, and we build technology to support everything. Last summer, I met Melpo in San Sebastian for the first time, and that changed everything. Melpo, would you like to introduce yourself next?
Melpo Toundas: Yes. Wow, what an introduction. I'm Melpo. I'm talking to you from Athens at the moment. I'm both Greek and English. I'm not half of anything; I'm both. I was born and raised here in Athens, and I have lived here most of my life other than the three years I spent in the UK studying. My first love for traveling was in my third year of uni, where I got to go on an Erasmus trip to the other side of the world, to the Indian Ocean on Reunion Island. That kind of changed everything. Since then, I've grabbed literally every opportunity that's come my way, which was when I met my now partner who was then living in San Sebastian. I was able to spend time in San Sebastian and meet Dara, and I actually worked with her and her kids, who are absolutely adorable.
Through babysitting, I found Forest School, just experientially from taking kids outside and seeing how they were acting quite differently when they were in nature. The more I researched it, I found this whole pedagogy, and I then did my training in Crete. I had a forest school there, and since then, that's kind of been what I've really wanted to spend my time doing. So I have my own forest school here in Athens, and I also teach English and Greek combined to adults. I'm kind of also traveling between the UK and Greece; that's where my partner is now. Actually, I found an amazing forest school in the UK that I've been working at a little bit, kind of just gathering all of these experiences. But I have to say, the one that I'm the most excited about is 100% San Sebastian this summer. I can't wait. Everything that I'm learning, I'm like, "Oh, shall we do this? What an amazing idea!" and just getting really excited about it.
Suzy: Yes, the camp opportunity this summer in San Sebastian is called Basoa. We will get into all the details and how the forest school elements are being incorporated into that. But I always like to go back and understand people's travel origin stories—how their love for travel started.
Dara Epstein: It started for me with my relationship with my maternal grandmother, my Nana. She absolutely loved traveling. In the 1960s, she and my mom took a gap year in Barcelona and Mallorca, and that began my little spark for Spain in particular. Otherwise, through my work with opera, I did just lots of festivals all over.
Suzy: Very cool, thank you for sharing. How about you, Melpo?
Melpo Toundas: My first big trip was to Reunion Island, where I spent a whole year as a student, which was insane. I mean, I completely fell in love with traveling, and it just changed me in such a way that I realized that if you can travel, do it. It has so much to offer. You learn about yourself, you learn about culture in a different way, and you learn about language in a different way. Since then, I've just been drawn to it.
Suzy: Awesome. We talked a little bit about the transition to family travel. What has that looked like?
Dara Epstein: Suzy, you talk a lot about slow travel, and my life pre-kids was fast travel. COVID made all of us slow down because we were all home perpetually for a little while. So that was as slow as it gets. Then, having a couple of kids and finding the travel spark doesn't go away—but my husband and I sat down and we said, "Okay, we need to get back up and travel." I didn't mention that we have been going to Spain every summer since 2013, so we knew we wanted to get back to Spain. The way that we used to do it was we would switch locations every few days. Like, we would meet someone and they would say, "You should check out Caracas," and then we would just go there the next day. It turns out that having a baby and a toddler, it's harder to do that.
We knew that we want our kids to be able to be adaptable and to find that love of travel, food, culture, and languages. The first time we traveled as a family of four was to San Sebastian; it was in 2023. I had a zero-year-old and a two-year-old. That was when we realized we wanted to slow down, and instead of switching locations every few days, we wanted to be in one place for five or six weeks. That was the place that we wanted to be. The first thing we did that first summer: we found the place to live, number one, and then number two, secure childcare. Because, as you know by now, I'm a childcare person. Having childcare versus not having childcare is the difference between having any freedom to do anything or not. So that is always our first step whenever we travel anywhere.
Suzy: You bring up how I think sometimes people travel to a location and they think that it's going to be all on them, right? They don't know anyone in this location. This is why I think people do seek out worldschooling, because there's opportunities to connect with other families. Drop-off hubs are a way that people can continue to work and have some of that freedom as a parent to explore the area that you're in as well. Childcare is another way, whether that's a nanny service or sitters. But maybe that's a little intimidating to seek out when you arrive in a new location. If someone is interested in seeking that one-on-one sitter care, what are some things that they could explore? What are some websites, or how would they go about looking for childcare in a new location?
Dara Epstein: There are different areas, and different countries have their own marketplaces and websites. For me, as someone who runs a nanny and babysitting service, we spend a lot of time screening candidates. Actually, as someone who is a parent and going to a new place, it turns out that is beneficial not just in verifying potential caregivers, but also in finding brand-new friends. Because actually, the first time we went to San Sebastian and we were looking for support, for everyone that we considered, we said, "Can you pass along a minimum of three references, please?" Then I get on phone calls with three references and I talk to them. I remember a couple of summers ago, I was speaking with a reference and they said, "I'm going to the organic supermarket in San Sebastian," and I was like, "That's across the street from where I live!" and she's like, "I'm right outside." So I literally just walked outside and met her, and now she's my friend. It's a way to build community and find childcare as well.
Suzy: That is so smart. And Melpo, what has your experience been on the other side where you are seeking out families to provide childcare services for?
Melpo Toundas: Dara was the first family I connected with in a different country; this was new for me as well. I was extremely lucky. When I was studying in London, I babysat quite a lot, but that was word of mouth. And then in Athens as well, mainly word of mouth. Honestly, I agree with Dara—you can meet people that you actually end up forming all sorts of interesting relations with. It's quite cool.
Suzy: It's really cool. There are a lot of opportunities in the care and sitting world. We have hosted an au pair before, and it was a "bro-pair," so I don't know if my two boys will be interested in that opportunity, but I know it is available—that they could go and be in that role and be with a family and help provide for the family. I just think it's a really cool way to meet a childcare need while having this cultural experience. And you're right: as you connect with more families in an area, you can find friends and you can find help, which is super important.
But let's talk a little bit about education. I'm curious about your thoughts on education and also if there are any languages that have been part of your journey.
Melpo Toundas: I fell in love with Forest School because of how I just saw it unfold in real life. It wasn't a theoretical approach for me in the beginning. Actually, this started through COVID, and being inside with kids was really difficult. They were tired; they didn't want to be inside anymore. The moment we would go to the park, it would all change. Actually, these were Greek kids who I was trying to also teach English to. The minute we went into the park, all of these things I was trying to do inside changed and they worked. That's when I went down the theoretical approach and did my training and started reading up all about this approach.
Forest School is a long-term process, so the idea is that kids get repeated visits to an outside, natural area. It's child-led and it has a strong focus on tools. I think all of these are vital today. Kids being able to have that time in nature to unwind—also, if they want to, to get to know: what are all of these bugs out here? What are all of these trees and shrubs? How does this all work? The more time they spend there, I really believe that they may also start to care about the environment there. We're not forcing them to care about it, but actually, my experience shows that they do.
The other aspect that I believe is super important is that it is child-led. As facilitators, we try and observe and listen carefully with our eyes and our ears, see kind of where kids' curiosity takes them because they do have that innate curiosity. We don't really need to push them into anything. And then our job is to bring the right materials to kind of help them and guide that curiosity and help them get the most out of the experience that they can. And then I cannot not talk about tool use, which is something that this year I've been super into—learning about how to use tools with kids. Actually, something that we've incorporated into our program at Basoa is toy workshops. I think kids learning to use tools and make their own toys is really cool, fun, and really important. They get to choose everything from what materials they use—like natural materials, wood, clay—and they get to make the whole thing from beginning to end. They get to choose their storyline, and making your toy can actually free up the play process that happens afterwards. All of this together, I think, is what Forest School is all about for me. And I think that it ties in beautifully with the language approach as well and what Maria is bringing to all of this. Dara, do you want to chime in about the language approach?
Dara Epstein: Well, you know, we need Maria here because she is so passionate about it.
Suzy: Yes, tell me more about Maria and her role in the summer camp and what she will bring.
Dara Epstein: Maria is an educator, and she has recently launched her own community space, really. It's for kids, it's for grownups; it's language acquisition through play in a low-stakes community atmosphere.
Suzy: And this is in San Sebastian?
Dara Epstein: Mm-hmm. And so that's the work that she is so passionate about. Then when Melpo and I started talking, I was like, "I've gotta find Maria." She was game, and now here we are. So, back to the education approach: my little one is just almost wrapping up her first year at a social constructivist preschool. My five-year-old was there for two years, and now she's in public school. We're in Santa Monica, by the way. We're based in Santa Monica, California. You know, public school isn't child-led, but the preschool sure is. And I think it's okay, because being able to be adaptable in different situations is important in life, so that is okay. The child-led piece of it is such a gift for the children. Melpo was talking about having the tools and the materials—and I mean, in your world, Melpo, it's like the whole outdoors, you know?
Melpo Toundas: Yeah, the third teacher. We call it the third teacher—the forest is our third teacher.
Dara Epstein: Right. And then with the grownups and the teachers scaffolding the situation in order to make sure that it remains a safe space and that we are always thinking about our community and how we can support each other and honor each other's cultural differences.
Suzy: It sounds like it's important to choose educational opportunities that carry the values that are important to you as a family, that the community piece is really important, and that if there are possible gaps that you see with an educational program—like the school you were talking about, maybe it is not as child-led as you would like—this is where summer opportunities or breaks, weekends... there's still a lot of time in our kids' lives where they're not in a school environment that we could take a lead on finding opportunities like forest schools and child-led opportunities. So that's why it's good to think about: what can I give my kids over summer that maybe they're not getting during the school year if you and your family are in a traditional school environment or whatever that might look like. But what about language? Dara, have you guys ever incorporated other languages in all your trips to Spain? Tell me more about languages.
Dara Epstein: Well, Melpo speaks a lot of languages.
Melpo Toundas: I was actually singing to your kids and they really liked it—it was a Greek song. I like bringing in songs and things from various languages, especially if they've got a rhythm to it. I don't think children really mind what language it's in if there's a catchy rhythm. So, I mean, I'm bilingual—English and Greek are my mother tongues. I'm fluent. And then I also speak French because I studied comparative literature and French, and then I spent the year in France—well, Reunion Island—speaking French. And I'm learning Spanish. If you move to Spain, you will learn Spanish and no one's going to be judging you on anything, I think.
Suzy: No, they're so welcoming. They're so willing to try. I mean, they don't always slow down the way I wish they would when I speak to them, but I 100% agree. What about you, Dara?
Dara Epstein: I was interested in learning different languages early in my career when I was still in the opera world. As part of that, I did a deep dive into IPA, which is the International Phonetic Alphabet, and that helps me so that I can phonetically understand different languages. I also lived in Rome for a year between undergrad and grad school. So, when I started spending more time in Spain than in Italy, my Spanish sounded a little Italian, but I think it's becoming a little bit better.
Suzy: Great. Well, thank you for sharing. Let's talk about the financial and logistical side. You talked about summers abroad in Spain. Tell me a little more about how you've been able to financially and logistically make this opportunity to travel work. And you too, Melpo—you've been in lots of different places finding work in different ways. How is this possible to fit in more travel while still managing all the financial and logistical sides of things?
Dara Epstein: Early on, when I first became an adult and realized I had to pay for my life, I remember sitting down with my close friends and I said, "How do I do this? I know that I love to travel. I know I need to afford my life. What do I do?" I started with the childcare. Then I started my company and I've built it—I mean, our whole company, we're all remote. We're fully flexible. Our team is all over the world. So, I built it, and that's how I did it.
Suzy: That's great. And if you start young and start early, it gives you time to do that. I think that's great. I really want my kids to pursue whatever they want, but I want to start early with some level of entrepreneurship just because I think there's a lot of important skills that can come from that, and then also the flexibility can be huge. How about you, Melpo? You said that you are between locations as well.
Melpo Toundas: Yeah, I feel like I've forever been between locations. During my university years, I was a student and I just booked really uncomfortable, but also long and cheap, flights or travel. I had loads of friends in lots of places—I'm really lucky in this, obviously—but I really avoid paying rent when I don't need to. If I'm traveling somewhere, I really like staying with people. I'll stay with a friend. I mean, now, you know, I'm going in between places—here, okay, I do pay my rent in Athens, I share a flat with friends—but then when I'm traveling to the UK, obviously I stay with my partner. If you decide to do it, you will find a way. I don't know how else to phrase it, basically. I also work online, so I have all my language lessons that I deliver online. And then with forest schools, when I'm away from Athens, I'll kind of just plan delivering blocks and then have a couple of weeks away and then deliver more blocks. So I plan around where I need to be, basically.
Suzy: What platform are you on for language tutoring?
Melpo Toundas: Oh, I have an Instagram, and it's mainly one-on-one. I love teaching Greek most of all, I've realized.
Suzy: And I'm curious—with the people that you are teaching Greek to, are these people that are moving to Greece?
Melpo Toundas: A lot of them are, yeah. I think Greece has become quite an attraction lately. I keep meeting people who are getting fed up with a lot of northern cities with various difficulties, and they really want the sun and other things that Greece has to offer. My parents have a restaurant on a Greek island called Alonissos, which my sister is currently running. They're retired. So I know loads of people from there as well, because there's kind of like a community there of lots of people from all over who kind of come back regularly. So I've met a lot of people through that as well.
Suzy: Which island did you say?
Melpo Toundas: It's Alonissos. It's a tiny island close to where Mamma Mia was filmed, actually—like the next island over.
Suzy: That's so cool.
Dara Epstein: I wanted to mention one other thing about logistically how. So my family and I, we're here in Santa Monica. We bought a home in San Sebastian a few years ago and we rent it out when we're not there, and that is also a great way to afford to have multiple homes.
Suzy: I love it. That is so cool. It is so nice to have a place with your belongings that you can come back to. But let's talk more about San Sebastian and about Basoa summer camp. That will be a summer day camp in San Sebastian this summer. Tell me more about the logistics, the location, a typical day, the ages of kids, and what they can expect.
Melpo Toundas: I have planned every single day, but it's a thing where you have a plan, but then a good day is actually probably doing half of the plan or even not any of the plan—because the plan is there to be broken.
Dara Epstein: At preschool, we call it "planned possibilities."
Melpo Toundas: Oh, I like that very much. So the camp is for kids aged four to seven. It's 2 to 8 p.m. and it's a six-week program. We have structured the day in a way that we are able to have a daily trip to an outdoor area, plus time back at La Cabana. So we've got the Forest School element plus the toy workshop back at La Cabana, slash story time, slash puppet theater. We've kind of got all of these activities we want to be intertwining. The surrounding area of La Cabana is amazing because there's a really nice park nearby as well as hills for hiking. We're encouraging the full six weeks so that we're really able to build this community. I think we will all kind of go through a journey together. It's important to be there from the beginning where we're talking about our values with the kids, we're setting our goals, we're creating these pathways for communication. And then I think there is a learning curve of learning how to do various things and learning about safety and giving kids the opportunity to take controlled risks.
Suzy: That's perfect. And what was the goal in picking the 2 to 8 p.m. time? I'm guessing for people that are working U.S. hours, that overlaps with most of the workday? And then families have time in the morning together when I feel like kids are at their best and they're most energetic, and then they get to go do their playtime.
Dara Epstein: You got it. I will say that we're looking to be supportive to the community as a whole, and something that we have realized in having this later time period is that the local people are working nine to five. So it isn't fully supportive in that sense; I do think we'll end up in more of an expat world in terms of the folks that we are working with. Although, being in a place like Donostia (San Sebastian), it has so much history. Euskara is the local language and that's really important for us to include and to honor the place. We've already decided that for future summers we'll have a morning camp and an afternoon/evening camp as a way to be supportive to everybody. Of course, we want one summer under our belt before we go expanding it.
Suzy: It makes sense to pick a time that might work for traveling families especially, and then add on as you get your feet under you and come up with how you can expand on this awesome program we're building.
Melpo Toundas: Yeah, I'm just going to add to this because what Dara is saying is super important. We are working with Maria, who is such a cool woman. She is from Donostia, she's bilingual and also speaks English. We were talking with her, and this is her work. She's working with languages—with Euskara, with Spanish, and with English. She's super interesting to talk to about this whole thing of language and identity. What she brings to the table is 100% this Basque identity as well. Her whole space speaks of that. I just remember she's got these amazing dolls in her space that are traditional Basque dolls and all these stories. So we've got a lot to learn from her, absolutely.
Suzy: I love it. That is what I don't think people realize before they travel around Spain is actually how diverse it is with languages and climate and history. It is a pretty compact country in some ways, but there's so much to explore. We're absolutely going to link to the program in the show notes so people can come check it out. Give me the dates again—you said a six-week program?
Dara Epstein: It's June 29th through August 7th. So it's those six weeks, 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. You can see an overview on the link, and then there's an interest form. We ask that anyone who's interested complete the interest form, and then we'll have a one-on-one meeting to get to know your family and tell you more about the program and answer any questions that you might have. And then if you're interested, you would submit an application from there.
Suzy: Perfect, that's a great way to get information first and ask questions. It sounds like a wonderful program. I wish we could stick around longer! And might the ages expand in future years as well?
Melpo Toundas: Potentially, they will grow up!
Dara Epstein: Well, listen, I have a three and a five-year-old who will be turning four and six, so that's why we started with that, Suzy.
Melpo Toundas: I think definitely there's a lot of potential in all of that. Everything that we're incorporating this year can definitely expand in so many interesting ways. Should I talk a tiny bit about the overview of the six weeks?
Suzy: Yeah, let's go for it.
Melpo Toundas: After our first week, which is focused on everyone getting to know each other and feeling at home and comfortable through various games, every week has a theme that is explored in various ways. We've got woodland exploration—explorations of bug hunts, building bug hotels, mud tree spirits. Then we've got flowers, bees, and natural dyes—doing things like making seed bombs and learning about pollinators. Then we've got music by the sea—making musical instruments and going to the beach. Then we've got building shelters, learning about birds and building nests, and also plenty of puppet theater and tool-making workshops—working with wood and learning how to use real tools. And also a lot about marine life—learning about all the fascinating marine life around Donostia, sea-themed stories, and plenty of folklore in there as well. So this is just a kind of taster of what we've got going.
Suzy: Sounds amazing. And Dara, I'm watching your smile just jump off your face. You are so excited for summer.
Dara Epstein: I'm so excited—I mean, I'm very excited about it.
Melpo Toundas: I can't wait to get back to Donostia San Sebastian. Honestly, it's a really, really nice place.
Suzy: We were there at the end of May last year just for a long weekend and I fell in love. I need to get back there—a summer camp would be a perfect time to be in that area. Let's talk about some of the challenges, though, of either coming up with a summer camp, managing travel as a family, or managing households across different countries. Tell me something that is a challenge—and then, of course, we'll talk about the positive parts of designing a life of travel.
Dara Epstein: Suzy, my team at Smart Sitting makes fun of me because every time someone uses the word "problem" or "challenge," I say "opportunity."
Suzy: Hey, that is perfect. It's true. So tell me about the opportunities that are being presented to you through business, travel, or family life.
Dara Epstein: Well, there's always a lot of logistics. One of the opportunities is just that we are so thankful for Maria for having a space and for understanding all of the local laws around how to successfully run a camp. I mean, I know how to do things like this in the United States, but it's literally a different country, so it has its own set of rules. Time zone differences and finding a time for all three of us to get together—it does feel extra magical when it happens. But also for me as a family, relocating my entire family and preparing my home, cleaning, finding a sub-letter and that whole thing... there's a lot to it. There's literally unlimited logistics.
Suzy: I'll tell you, yes. We've reached the point of two booster seats and it's like, "We can travel with a lot fewer items!" So there are joys that come with kids getting a little bit older while I'm still happy that they're young and we can explore. What about you, Melpo? What's been an opportunity for you?
Melpo Toundas: An opportunity? Meeting people, definitely. I did not expect all of this to come out of last summer; this has been amazing. I think for me, the biggest difficulty has been just time to do everything the way I want to do it. It's taken me months to put together this program—writing out things and communicating with each other. I always feel like I've got work that I have to do, but then I don't have enough time to do it because I've also got my other work. So it's this kind of cycle of: I need to create the time to do this properly.
Suzy: Well, I can tell you put a lot of care into the schedule and the plan—the "planned possibilities"—for your summer. Hopefully, being in one location for those couple of weeks will also give you a chance to slow down and settle into summer in San Sebastian.
Melpo Toundas: Oh yes. And San Sebastian is such a great place to unwind, I think. It's slow-paced. It's a very green space. It just all feels really healthy. I don't know how to describe it compared to Athens where there's so much pollution and noise pollution and it's all so fast. I look forward to being able to slow down for sure.
Suzy: Are there any wins for either of you?
Dara Epstein: We get to spend another summer together!
Melpo Toundas: Yeah, and I am actually very excited to see your kids there.
Dara Epstein: To be in San Sebastian, that's a win.
Suzy: And what are your favorite parts about it, by the way?
Dara Epstein: My favorite part is really every time I leave my apartment and seeing friends every day—every time I go to get a café con leche or a tortilla, or walk down to the beach, or go to a little office space at the Tabakalera where I work from sometimes. There was one day last summer when my husband went out to take the trash out and he came back like 45 minutes later and I was like, "What happened?"
Suzy: Ten conversations later, right?
Dara Epstein: Exactly! He just bumped into the neighbor and he bumped into someone at the trash bin. The environment is built for community. There are parks every other block and there are unlimited marching bands. You know, there's so much music and love and care and it's a place where people truly care about each other, and I care about everybody there as well. That is what I'm looking forward to.
Suzy: That social piece is so key about living here, and I see people of all ages hanging out in the plaza together. I just love that. This is great.
Dara Epstein: And the dogs too, all sharing the same water fountain.
Suzy: Let's wrap up with the lightning round so we can get to know some of your favorites. If you can only ever visit or live in three countries, what are they?
Melpo Toundas: Well, Greece, Spain, and Reunion Island, for sure.
Dara Epstein: I guess I'll go Spain for sure. Greece? Yeah, I'll have Greece. Should I say the United States? If I want to see my friends and family, then I should probably just include here as well.
Suzy: You have to! What is the best or worst food that you've tried?
Melpo Toundas: Sardines. Sardines are my favorite food. I bet that's very plentiful in Greece.
Dara Epstein: I am a big foie gras fan, for better or worse. You know, seared with some sort of side of fruit compote.
Suzy: What about the pintxos, right? The food there is so great. What is your favorite travel-related movie, book, or story?
Melpo Toundas: The Summer Book by Tove Jansson, who's the creator of The Moomins. She wrote this amazing adult book, which is fantastic.
Dara Epstein: And for me, Portrait of a Lady, the book.
Suzy: Very cool. What's an item that you cannot travel without?
Melpo Toundas: Headphones to listen to music and podcasts as well. I love podcasts.
Dara Epstein: I have this very cozy pillow with the secret blanket inside of it, and it's really nice to have on an airplane.
Suzy: What is your favorite sunrise or sunset that you can recall?
Melpo Toundas: Mine is with my mum on Alonissos Island. She still wakes up at like 5:30 a.m. for some alone time, and I would hear her and I would go and join her in her alone time and we'd watch the sunrise.
Dara Epstein: I was outside of Denver in the mountains with one of my very best friends, Dee. We were having a sunset hike and then we found a spot to sit in the middle of a mountain and watch the sunset. Then she pulled out some secret chocolate-covered strawberries that she made... anyway, we just sat there and ate chocolate-covered strawberries and watched the sunset, and it was beautiful and perfect.
Suzy: That is beautiful. I think this would be a great one to end on: if you could live in one city for an entire year, which city would it be?
Melpo Toundas: Donostia (San Sebastian). I mean, where else?
Suzy: Well, this has been so lovely to hear more about. Basoa Summer Camp—I'm going to link to that in the show notes. But where else can people connect with you?
Melpo Toundas: I've got my Athens Forest School Instagram that I could share.
Dara Epstein: My babysitting and nanny company is called Smart Sitting, so that would be smartsitting.com. If someone wants to reach out to me directly, you can email me at dara@smartsitting.com.
Suzy: I'll make sure to link that and all the information for the summer camp in the show notes so that people can reach out with interest as they hear more about this amazing program. Thank you!
Melpo Toundas: Thank you so much for having us. This has been my first podcast and I had a great time.
Dara Epstein: Thank you, Suzy.
