Suzy: Welcome to the Wander Worldschool Podcast. I'm Suzy, a travel-loving money nerd and mom of two, and our family lives between Spain and Colorado. On this show, we discuss the stories, logistics, and finances of traveling families and the many ways to learn along the way. Today we get to know Maddy Novich. Welcome to the show! Thank you for being here. Tell me more about you and your family.

Maddy: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Like Suzy said, I'm Maddy Novich. I'm a New York-based mom of three, and I am a criminal justice professor by trade, a content creator by hobby, and a global traveler. We summer abroad every year, and I'm excited to share what I've learned, what we do, and how we make it happen in terms of finances and childcare.

Suzy: I love it. And how old are your children?

Maddy: I have three: my oldest is 12, my middle is eight, and my youngest is four.

Suzy: Great. Those are such great ages for summer camps abroad and eye-opening experiences for little ones. But before we talk about your family travels and your summer camps in Europe, I'd love to hear more about where your love for travel started.

Maddy: Absolutely. I grew up doing a lot of road trips. International travel was never huge in my family; it was very expensive, and coming from the Midwest, traveling internationally was just challenging. My parents were divorced, so it was just one of those things where we did what travel we could. My dad loves traveling, so he would take us on these epic road trips all over the country. We would go from Chicago to Florida to Arizona—just everywhere.

So, I did a lot of domestic travel, but I remember my sixteenth birthday wish was to go to London with my best friend, and my dad made that happen. That was really my first international trip, and it was one of the best trips I had ever had. It really ignited this love of being in Europe and realizing how different it is and how much there is to learn and see. I got very excited about that.

Then I went to college and started traveling a lot more. I majored in Chinese and also speak Mandarin as my second language. I started going back and forth to China a lot and eventually lived there for a while. I really started doubling down on this international lifestyle. Then I met my now-husband. This is a funny story I actually don't share very often in my content: when I first met him, he was a New Yorker and he said, "Well, why would I ever need to leave New York?" I told him, "I’m sorry, I don’t know if this is going to work because I need to travel. I know we just met and I know we’re madly in love, but in three months I’m moving to China for a year. You can either come with me or we’ll just reconnect in a year when I get back." He said, "No, no, no—you’re the love of my life. I barely even have a passport, but I’m going to make it happen." So he moved with me to China, and we had a great year. When we came back, we knew we needed to keep traveling. It just evolved from there; it became part of my lifestyle and then our lifestyle as a couple.

Suzy: Moving to China is like going from zero to one hundred. There was no soft landing in Europe; he just jumped right in! That’s very adventurous.

Maddy: It was very exciting. We weren't in Beijing or Shanghai; we were in Shenzhen because I was working in manufacturing at the time. As a Chinese speaker, it was helpful for American companies to have someone on the ground who could speak the language. I was working in a completely Chinese office, and my goal was to become fluent. I’m still conversational and I still dream in Chinese, but I haven’t used it in a very long time. It was a fascinating juxtaposition to America. Once you're in Asia, it's easier to travel. We went to Thailand and the Philippines, which was amazing. I had already been to Korea and Japan. It was just awesome. I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong and Macau as well.

Suzy: I love talking about languages. From my understanding, Chinese is a very difficult one to learn. How many years did it take you? Obviously, living there and working with people in the language helps, but how long did it take to acquire it?

Maddy: It took years, and I started late. I wasn't someone who started learning at 16 or 17; I discovered it my freshman year of college when I was 18 or 19. I realized that was what I wanted to do with my academic career. I originally thought I was going into fashion design at Iowa State University, but I took Chinese as an elective and realized that was what I actually wanted to do. I transferred to a community college and then eventually graduated from the University of Pennsylvania's East Asian Languages and Studies program, focusing on Chinese. I loved it. It took about three or four years of intense studying and then moving to China. Interestingly, I actually found Chinese easier than French because the foundations are more memorization-focused rather than focused on understanding conjugations. Since memorization is one of my strengths, it was easier for me to pick up than French.

Suzy: That’s very interesting. For someone who prefers that style of learning, there’s hope! I’m currently in the thick of conjugating Spanish verbs, and it’s not always easy for a brain that isn’t used to doing that in English. But if language acquisition is a goal, it’s great to know there is an opportunity to learn as an adult. There is always room to learn new things and find new adventures.

Maddy: Absolutely. We’re going to be in Spain this summer, and my goal is to have functional Spanish by the end of the year. I’m studying on Duolingo and I’m going to take Spanish lessons while we are there. You can start at any age. My friend Dave Epstein talks about "Range"—you don't necessarily have a huge advantage by starting when you're younger. You should study whenever you want to and expose yourself to new things. It’s never too late to learn a new skill.

Suzy: Never too late. You mentioned your plans for the summer, but you have spent the last few summers heading to Europe for summer camps with the kids. How did that get started? How did you find the camps, and how do you make it work for your family?

Maddy: It has been a progression. For a little context, we spend between nine and eleven weeks in Europe every summer, bouncing between different countries back-to-back. Every two weeks or so, we move to a new location and put our kids into local summer camps. It started as a gradual discovery. We began like most American families with a two-week vacation to Amsterdam.

We’re a big cycling and cargo-biking family here in New York, and we like to say we got "radicalized" in Amsterdam because everybody bikes there. It was such an easy way of life; everyone spoke English and getting around was simple. One summer, we realized that if we were in New York, the kids would be in summer camp while we worked or did adult things. A lightbulb went off. I looked for a camp for our four-year-old and found a Lego engineering camp for about $350 a week. It included snacks and was a drop-off from 8:30 AM to 4:00 PM. We figured, why not put our Lego-loving son there instead of having him be bored with us at museums?

We dropped him off, and after the first day, he said it was the greatest thing ever and asked to go back. We enrolled him for the whole week, and my husband and I realized we were actually relaxing on vacation. The next year, we enrolled him in a nature camp. Every year we returned to Amsterdam, and eventually, we wondered if we could do this in other cities. We started extending our travel to a month in Amsterdam, or two weeks in Berlin followed by a month in Amsterdam. Each city had camps, and the kids always had a great time. We did our due diligence, choosing long-established camps often referred by local expats. It totally changed the way we travel. Now, we prioritize summer camps so we can all relax and enjoy the vacation.

Suzy: The cool thing about summer camps is that they are different from school. There are themes and topics that kids can dive into; it's not meant to be purely academic. It’s a break where kids can be kids, explore, and play outside. Not every family can provide those opportunities, but it’s a way to blend kid-friendly activities with the parents’ desire to travel. I've spent summers in Colorado paying for camps, and I know people are often shocked at the prices in US cities. What is the experience like abroad, and what other financial considerations should families take into account?

Maddy: We are a very financially conscious family, and financial literacy is a top priority for us. I actually made a reel about our 2024 cost breakdown that I can share. The biggest cost for us is the flights from New York to Europe and the internal travel. We do multi-city trips, so we might start in Amsterdam and fly home from Paris. Tickets are usually between $800 and $900, and we’re buying five of them. However, we leverage credit card points like Chase Sapphire Reserve or Amex Platinum bonuses to help.

The other major expense for most families is housing, but we use HomeExchange. We swap our New York apartment for a home wherever we are going, so housing is free. The annual membership is about $300 for unlimited swaps. People always ask if it's allowed in New York. We rent our apartment and had it written into our lease to be above board, but it doesn't violate housing laws because there is no money being exchanged; it's like having friends stay over. So, with that big expense gone, the rest of the summer costs are just what you would spend locally on groceries, eating out, and activities. Our entire summer, including flights and camps for three kids, cost about $15,000. That’s not bad considering what we would spend staying in New York, where camps can cost $800 or $900 per week per kid.

Suzy: I love the idea of swapping expenses. When you travel long-term, you can do that through things like HomeExchange. You'd be spending the money anyway, so you might as well be on the French Riviera! It’s important to check the legality and your jurisdiction, even if you rent. New York is a hotspot, but there is always someone who wants to visit a new location. Do you usually do reciprocal swaps or use guest points?

Maddy: It’s almost always reciprocal because people want to come to New York. We have a duplex in Manhattan, which is very tempting. This summer we are using points, but normally we prefer having people in our home rather than leaving it empty. As a criminal justice professor, I know an unoccupied space is a vulnerable target. Plus, in cases of bad weather—like when our garden flooded—our home exchangers were there to address it immediately, which saved us from a mold issue. They are like trusted house-sitters.

People ask about our "stuff," but to me, everything is replaceable. If a bed or a TV breaks, it’s still cheaper than paying for eleven weeks of hotels. We take care of each other's homes. Some people are weird about others sleeping in their bed, but I'd rather have one nice family in my bed with a mattress cover than a hotel bed where thousands of people have slept!

Suzy: You bring up great points. We’re doing a HomeExchange to Naples in April. It’s a great concept. How does work fit in? I know you have summers off, but does your husband work remotely?

Maddy: As a professor, I am typically off, though I do create content on my own schedule. My husband works New York hours for most of the summer. We do camps and family time during the day, then I take the evening shift with the kids while he works through his meetings and joins us for dinner. He usually starts work around 3:00 or 4:00 PM and works until 11:00 PM. Sometimes we hire a local babysitter for an extra set of hands, which I highly recommend.

Suzy: The time difference between the East Coast and Europe makes that very doable. What do your locations look like for this summer?

Maddy: This is our longest summer ever, and we're hitting several new spots. We start with a week in Barcelona for a "Little Makers" camp, then head to Valencia for two weeks at "Olé" summer camp. After that, our daughter is going to a sleepaway camp in Switzerland near Geneva. While she is there, the rest of us will spend two weeks in Lyon and Annecy, France. Then we pick her up and fly to Athens to join "Boundless Life" for the first time. It’s an all-inclusive worldschooling and co-working community, and we’ll be with a cohort in Syros for three and a half weeks. Finally, we’ll spend a week in Athens because my son is obsessed with Greek history. We’ll be back by the beginning of September.

Suzy: The summer break schedule in Europe seems to align well with New York. When do you leave and return?

Maddy: We pull our kids out of school a few days early, usually around June 20th. Nobody is doing anything the last two weeks of school anyway! They return after Labor Day in September. I usually have to be back in August for the start of the college semester, but I’m on sabbatical this year, so we don’t have to rush back.

Suzy: That’s perfect. Late summer in Europe is spectacular. What other locations or camps would you recommend from your past trips?

Maddy: Amsterdam is a big one; we loved the "WOW Family Center." I’ve also done Copenhagen, Berlin, Vienna, and Krakow—I highly recommend Poland. We returned to Amsterdam several times because the Lego and nature camps were so great. For beginners, "WOW Family Center" is great because it takes kids from ages three to ten. The "Terragon Nature Camp" in Amsterdam is also a favorite; the kids come home dirty and exhausted, and they love it. The Berlin camp was great too, even though I didn't realize it involved learning German! I’ve been building a database of nearly 500 summer camps categorized by country, age, and activity so I can easily plan future trips. Next year, we’re looking at Norway and Sweden.

Suzy: Is the age range generally workable for your three kids? And how early do you start looking?

Maddy: It depends. Sometimes my two daughters go together, or my eight-year-old and twelve-year-old go together. It’s harder to find camps for kids under four or five. My twelve-year-old loves Minecraft, so I find specific coding camps for him while the girls do multi-activity camps. I prioritize convenience and try to find housing near the camp to make drop-off easy. As for timing, I start looking six to eight months in advance. In the US, camps sell out by January, but in Spain and France, registration often doesn't open until March or April. I get on mailing lists early so I’m ready when they open.

Suzy: What are some of the challenges you’ve faced?

Maddy: The biggest anxiety is usually about someone getting sick or injured. We always have travel insurance. Last summer, my daughter dislocated her toe at 9:00 PM. One of my best friends is an ER doctor, so I messaged her and she told us it could wait until morning. We went to the hospital the next day and were in and out in two hours. I always carry a first-aid kit and make sure our regular doctor allows for virtual visits. Using HomeExchange also helps reduce stress because if you arrive late and the kids are hungry, there is usually pasta in the pantry! For the wins, it’s really a team effort. My husband handles the spreadsheets, flights, and budgeting, while I find the camps and handle the messaging. It makes the whole process doable.

Suzy: Let’s wrap up with a lightning round. If you could only ever visit three countries, which would they be?

Maddy: The Netherlands, Denmark, and France. Amsterdam and Copenhagen are amazing for biking, and France is so diverse with incredible food.

Suzy: Best or worst food you’ve ever tried?

Maddy: When I lived in China, we used to play a game called "Will it make me sick?" because we often didn't know what we were eating in industrial Shenzhen. Some of those mystery dishes were definitely the worst things I've ever eaten!

Suzy: Best sunset?

Maddy: We did a sunset photo session in Rome overlooking the Vatican when my son was three. The photos have this incredible purple and blue sky—it was breathtaking.

Suzy: First thing you do when you arrive?

Maddy: Unpack. We only travel with one medium suitcase for all five of us, so everyone has a packing cube that they immediately put into a drawer. We prefer to pack light and buy what we need locally.

Suzy: Advice for families starting out?

Maddy: Pick a location with the least amount of friction. Amsterdam was easy for us because everyone speaks English and it's a direct flight. Start with a language you're comfortable with and a bigger city with more options. International schools often have summer camps where the primary language is English, which helps with communication.

Suzy: Lastly, what is your favorite thing about cargo biking?

Maddy: Efficiency and freedom. I don't have to deal with traffic or parking, and I know exactly when I’ll arrive. It’s eco-friendly and has great mental health benefits. It’s been transformative for our family.

Suzy: Where can people find you?

Maddy: You can find me on Instagram @CargoBikeMama or at cargobikemama.com. I have a newsletter where I share summer camp options, travel tips, and advice for New York City.

Suzy: This has been great. Thank you so much for sharing!

Maddy: Thank you for having me, Suzy!