Suzy: Welcome to the Wonder World School Podcast. I'm Suzy, a travel loving money nerd, mom of two, and our family lives between Spain, Colorado, and Japan. On this show, we discuss the stories, logistics, and finances of traveling families and the many ways to learn along the way. Today we get to know Meghana. Welcome to the show. Tell me more about you and your family and where you're calling in from today.

Meghana: Sure, I'm so excited to be here, Suzy. Yeah, my name is Meghana. I grew up in San Francisco Bay Area of California. My husband as well, and our home base now is in Lisbon, Portugal, since seven years almost. But at the moment, currently we are outside of Amsterdam in another city called Rotterdam, the Netherlands. And we have three kids, ages thirteen, eleven, she just turned, and then my youngest is eight.

Suzy: Gotcha. And I know you're the CEO and the founder of Families Go Abroad Portugal. You help families move to Portugal.

Meghana: Yeah.

Suzy: There's a lot that comes with a move abroad. So we are absolutely going to get into what services and support you offer because I know Portugal is a country that people are really keen to move to for a lot of different reasons. But let's go back to where your love for travel started.

Meghana: It wasn't known to me as travel at the time, but my parents, since they're immigrants from India to New York and then to California, we've always had this strong connection with our homeland, with my parents' homeland. So in my first year of life, I was traveling to India so that they could remain connected to their family. So for me, that's kind of what travel's always been. It's about connection with myself and with people and getting to know people, how they live. It's been sort of this deep, profound curiosity of mine since the beginning. But now of course it's evolved because I see how much value in education and growth happens by sharing and spending time away from what your comfort zones are. And I want to give that to my kids.

Suzy: And what has family travel looked like with your kids? And then when did you meet your partner in there?

Meghana: My partner and I, we met a long time ago. We've been together for quite a few years since college days. And he also comes from an immigrant background. His mom's Kenyan. So I think his exposure also is similar to mine about just the deep down desire to see what else is out there. There's so much that the US has that's great, but I've always wanted to see what else is there that is also really beautiful and different. And so he shares that as well. And so when we travel, that's kind of how we travel. Like I really maybe spend 10% of my time in the tourist sections of town or tourist towns, even I kind of avoid them. Because deep down underneath I really like to investigate and I'm really curious in the anthropological, sociological way. And I'm a city planner by academic, so I feel like I'm more intrigued by the day to day routine, every day. What are people doing? How are they getting around? What are they eating? Just really everyday nuances of life in other countries.

Suzy: I agree. That's often my favorite part too. That is one reason people love Europe is because a lot of that does happen in the plazas and in the streets. And you can see that daily rhythm a little bit more because of the walkability and things like that. When did Lisbon or Portugal come into play for you and your family?

Meghana: I would say it came to me more spiritually because I was always, each maternity leave I had, I was focused on how can I do momming and mothering but have this exposure to travel early on and seeing another life. So those periods of time I could actually go for like two months. So my first maternity leave, I was in Panama, second one, two years later in south of France, and then by the third, when my daughter was born, I did a home birth at home in the water. I named her Nazire, which is actually a Portuguese town, before ever setting foot in Portugal. So I gave her this Portuguese name, not knowing Portugal, but knowing at some point I'd visit, and it wasn't until like a few months later at her fourth month, we went all five of us to Portugal and that's when I realized that well we had to see her namesake, right? But then it was at that time like I looked at my husband and I'm like, I don't want this to end. I just kind of want to be here. This is our spot. Later on I look back and I'm like it was like the spirit was calling me to spend this stage of my life in Portugal.

Suzy: How special, and have you visited Nazare?

Meghana: Of course, in that first trip in 2018. So yeah, we did. We spent two weeks in Nazare Town. It's a beach surf town in the central coast. It's known for its epic waves and a lot of surf competitions. But that was my daughter's name and it led us to Portugal. We can't leave. We're gonna figure it out, but this is our home for now.

Suzy: So that first trip in 2018 is what really spurred the love with Portugal. And when did you make the move over?

Meghana: So right after that travel was the time we kind of really committed. We finally said we're all in. I don't have all the how and the answers yet, but this is our chance and we're gonna do it. And so it was about eighteen, nineteen months later, we moved in January of 2020.

Suzy: And then in hindsight, I imagine if you did not arrive in early 2020, it would have been delayed a lot longer because of the pandemic. But you also landed in a new country, a new to you country, I'm sure a little bit new to you language, and then suddenly the world shuts down. What were those first few years like?

Meghana: That's so true. I don't think it would have come if we hadn't have come in January. That first year was really like the novelty of everything was so new. Everything was so new. We're in a new country, new life, new language, new culture. But then dealing with COVID on top of that, right? With the newness of all of that, I think it excited me more than scared me. I was in the best place to be honest at that time because we were in Portugal, vaccinations were running and it was very quiet and it was very safe to walk around. And schools opened first to allow parents to maybe think about getting back to work. The first, yeah, that first year was a big challenge, but we enjoyed that challenge. And that first apartment, I had no furnishings, I had mattresses on the floor for a good couple years. But we had a great time. Kids loved it, right? They don't know. They don't have these expectations. They're like, cool, we can jump off the bed and land right at the floor, dance party space. Like it was amazing for them.

Suzy: Kids can often just roll with the adventure more than we even sometimes give them credit for. But you mentioned schools. Tell me about your approach to education when you landed in Portugal and then also what the language acquisition has been like for you and your family and your kids.

Meghana: We've always held the belief that we wanted our kids integrating to Portuguese language and culture, and being able to communicate with other children was really important and for us too to communicate with other families. So I put them in Portuguese private schools from the beginning because they were quite young and that level of immersion I knew would be very supportive for them to be bilingual. When we moved my son was six, four and my youngest was barely two. I also think it's been such a great investment in terms of them feeling confident in language and in themselves, because we did decide to have long-term life in Portugal, and now they can go to Portuguese school and they could choose an English school. So we just opened up way more opportunities for longer term education as well as friendships on both sides.

Suzy: Kids are really adaptable with language. And so that's often why people, when they move somewhere, will opt for a local school or make sure that they get that integration piece. Tell me about what it's been like for you. How much Portuguese did you know beforehand?

Meghana: It is a challenge for us, right? Cause again, like you said, we don't have the full immersion, we're still doing English majority of the day. I really put myself out there and look like a fool and just keep talking to people and people wanna switch all the time to English because they know I'm not native, but I just keep going, I just keep going in my Portuguese broken. And that's where I feel like that's how I grow. I really put myself into those uncomfortable positions. But then there's also the piece of people are like, wow, they find it so admirable that I even have gotten this far. But it's only because I just put myself out there. You know, I think I do have a good language ability, I will admit my accent's not bad, but I have lots of errors. And it's ongoing. Like for six years I've invested in training, private lessons. I take breaks and then I see the regression. I feel it. And my kids are way more advanced. They get so humiliated when I speak. But you know, I noticed they'll play together in their language sometimes in Portuguese. I understand parts of it. I don't get all the details. But it's becoming a bit of a secret language. They could definitely put together a plan and I wouldn't know about it kind of thing. But it's the problem I created, right? But I love it. I love seeing that they can do that. And now my kids are thirteen, eleven and eight. So yeah, their language ability far exceeds mine. And they wanna learn Japanese now, they wanna learn French, and they totally have confidence. They're like, yeah, I could totally do this. I could totally learn other languages, Mom. And like they meet other people who don't, we've been traveling through Norway, Netherlands, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish. They're like, it doesn't matter, we're gonna find a way to communicate. And it comes from that, I think. Just being pushed into learning other languages and like, okay, I don't know what they said, but it's okay. It's a lot of fun.

Suzy: I'm glad I'm not the only one that embarrasses my children when I attempt to speak the language. But I use that as an example, like, you know, we've gotta try new things at all ages and stages and sometimes it's a little embarrassing, but that's part of the process with choosing to grow and learn and stretch ourselves. Thank you for sharing more about your education journey there. And I'm curious, so are they still in a private school or is it now a public school? And what does education in Portugal look like?

Meghana: I mean it has changed. We've been there six, seven years nearly. So they're at a different stage right now, my kids. So we've had to change them into different private Portuguese schools mostly. My daughters have stayed in private. One of my daughters is neurodivergent. So we have wanted to choose something very much more supportive of that. And they do have alternative schools. It's coming up and they're Portuguese still. Montessori, though small, Waldorf is still also kind of growing. So there's different approaches and it's private Portuguese, so it's far more affordable than international schools, which are again English only. I think with education we have to stay open and flexible and as much as I center my life around having great school options, I'm also wanting to be realistic and support at home is just a requirement always. Like I always supplement with other courses that are more up his alley, like in computers, innovation, robotics, STEM. He's more of that child and language. He loves languages.

Suzy: Thank you for bringing up your adventures in Portugal education, because I think it shows that it's not always the country that suddenly offers you this amazing academic or educational experience. Just like world schooling works great for many parents to be solely with the kids and doing the education. What can lack is the language, perhaps. And so if we're trading that for more like an in-person education does not mean that that's going to fill all the education gaps that we want our kids to experience and that sometimes we have to provide those outside of school, regardless of what the rest of the day looks like. And so I wonder if someone's thinking, okay, I've thought about moving abroad, whether that's Portugal or another country, and they're wondering how does someone up and leave financially and logistically life in the US or wherever their home country is and move abroad. What has that funding of your lifestyle looked like for you?

Meghana: Totally. This is such a big barrier for so many people even to start thinking about moving. I think so many people rule it out. One of the service areas that I like to support families around because I do think it is a big concern because we're raising kids, of course, so it's different when it's just us. I also believe it needs to be a paradigm shift for so many of us because we're very much rooted in the system of one income, an employee of a company in that system. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I also think that in this 21st century we have to become more open and adaptive. And I always saw myself as an entrepreneur first. I had so many other business ideas, ways that I wanted to give value. And I think that this area of okay, I can maintain the current job, but I think it's always important to explore other income streams. So one of the ways that we have done it as a family, thankfully my husband's kind of brought up into this, is he's had the fortunate upbringing of real estate and so we have that background, but I know so many families probably didn't come from that. But I think there's so much opportunity to optimize investments if you have them or if you wanna make them as one way of many streams to make this move possible in today's age. And this is probably the easiest it's ever been to go remote, to create whatever you're doing, but you can do your work from anywhere, pretty much, for the most part. So I think it's just this mindset shift for me is allowing families to believe and trust that they could do it in different ways and that there are opportunities to support and have stability. And final thought with that is I think mobility is key to this stability that we actually really want in our life and showing our kids how to create wealth and create money and monetize our gifts and our interests in a way that is sustainable from anywhere is a real thing that we can really show them. It's really important.

Suzy: I think that's important too. Can you expand on that a little more? How that's shown up in your family? Because my kids are a little younger and I want to make sure they cultivate that entrepreneurial mindset as well and the abundance that can come with knowing that I can create this life that I want for myself. But I'm curious how that's shown up for you in your family.

Meghana: Evolving question in some ways, but because we've been able to do it with real estate, there's so much we've learned about when it's going well and when it's not going well, and being able to emotionally manage some of that, manage our expectations, and that's why we've been able to ride some of the struggle periods that were really unpredictable. And I've in the process become really creative. I think what really happens is you realize how much you can live without. There's the budget end and then how creative you can get in terms of being in value in the world. So many of our gifts are natural as women leaders that we don't think we can monetize. But there is ways. There's so many creative ways now. So many outlets, so many people that want this lifestyle and want to do this because it is, I think this is what's gonna be future proof for our kids. And because education's going one way, labor market's going another way, and they really are behind, I think, in terms of education too. So I just think what you and I, like you Suzy, what you're doing already is showing them another model of how to create value in the world and there's that by doing and showing, not just by saying.

Suzy: Appreciate that. And I do agree. There's so much about parenting that I'm like, I have to model this good behavior I want from them. Like which of course I should be doing, eating all my vegetables or whatever. But you realize how important it is to model it. And you're right, real estate has many ups and downs. It's been part of our picture as well. And there are ups and downs, but you can show how you adapt through that and kids can really pick up on that. Let's talk about numbers to living in Portugal. I'm curious what an average month of spending looks like for your family or could look like for a family moving there so that people can think, okay, this is about what I might need if I do want to pursue a move to Portugal.

Meghana: I wanna keep it nice and positive, but I do think there's so much media out there that's misguiding people in terms of real budget. Cause it is not as cheap as it's sold to many of us. Yeah.

Suzy: Thank you. Yes. There's a lot even about Spain, I'm like, it depends on where you're coming from. And so that's why I like to put sometimes just real numbers to it because then a person can say, yeah, that would work for me or not. But sometimes if we're just saying blanket statements about how affordable something is, that may not actually be the case based on someone's lifestyle or their point of reference.

Meghana: Exactly. But I wanna be real because obviously I think housing has really, really crept up over the years. But for us, like 2,500 on housing, like in downtown Lisbon, is kind of normal for a two to three bedroom, of course, if you want bigger and more space, you want to be further away, it kind of can change and fluctuate. But I think having that mindset about okay, it could be about this. And with that said you can find places much cheaper too, but you have to go further out or you're willing to compromise on size. And then the other biggest ticket item is schooling, if you want to do international schooling, we're looking at two grand a month dollars per kid. Average Portuguese private schools maybe five hundred you can average, including food, which is amazing too. The other biggest ticket item kinda ends up being transport for us. We're a family of five. We have extracurriculars across town with three kids. So that can be like five or six hundred euros. It can be with a rental car. We would like to rent cars, we haven't bought one yet in six, seven years, plus gas, and even Ubers and stuff add up. But public transit is not the greatest in Lisbon, but it is available depending on where you go. And it's free for students up to twenty-six years old. Health care was the last one I want to talk about because I know that's a real big concern. But with options, like we're in the public health so we don't pay any private insurance. I know that's out of comfort zone for many folks in the US, so for a family of five on private health insurance, it could be around three hundred dollars a month for private. It's not bad. But something like that is a lot more affordable than in the US and it's not tied to your job, right? Food, yeah, food, of course. That would be more expensive, I think, than transportation. We spent a lot on food. I don't know why, we're a family of five, but I think it's just we enjoy food. But you can literally go and get amazing grilled fish, probably like in Spain, and it's like twelve Euros. Like if you go to a very local spot, be ready to speak Portuguese. It's not gonna have lots of flavor. But it's gonna taste like what it is. So, you know, if it's a piece of grilled fish, it's gonna taste like fish. So on average I don't know what we're spending, but it was above a thousand for a family of five on food. But you get good quality and really fresh produce and local to Europe, southern Europe. So I don't know where that budget totals around like six, seven K a month, eight K.

Suzy: If someone is listening right now and they're thinking, okay, those monthly averages for cost of living in Portugal seems very doable. You also offer support and resources to families looking to move to Portugal. Can you share a little more about the programs and the resources that people can utilize if they want to move to Portugal?

Meghana: I am the CEO founder of the Families Go Abroad Portugal program. And in it I teach a methodology which I call the Freedom Family Framework. And basically it's like a five-step process of moving within twelve months. But I work with clients even two to three years before they actually say they want to move because once you're ready and once you feel complete, you can do it. You have the backing to go to it and feel confidence. So my process is first identifying what are your priorities and your lifestyle and redesigning that for now, not based on where you have been and how you've been living and the costs you've been running on auto, maybe. Now let's get conscious and really start to shape what is the kind of lifestyle we really want to be having with your kids in the next year to three years, five years, and envisioning that out and then putting the numbers underneath that. So there's a budget planning going on, but there's also looking at, well, if I don't have the income yet set up and it's not mobile, how do I do that? So I have like five pathways in which I help people identify other ways to have mobile income, right? Like I mentioned, real estate is my background, my husband and I, and there's investments. There's also other ways of negotiating your work arrangement. Even if you think your employer won't say yes. There's a financial piece and a financial strategy. And then once we know finances, then I can apply the real the visa, right? And I support as a consultant. And then any areas I don't know or need to, I have a team of partners in real estate and lawyers, legal team and accountants, tax professionals I can bring on and help introduce even more level of granular support. And then we look at the logistics of it. So there's quite a bit in my program. I try to cover in 12 months to 24 months. I do one-on-one consulting and also a group program. And my latest one is a post-move, which I don't think anyone really talks about for what happens after. Yeah, we've all put all of our efforts into this, building this out, and now you're there, and how is it turning out and what about building community and building support and still staying connected with loved ones back home? There's so much to cover, but I really want to be that leader for families like people of color, families of color, for this whole process when it comes to moving to Portugal. And a lot of it can be applied to Europe as a whole, but my focus right now has been on families moving to Portugal.

Suzy: You mentioned working with families of color and what about Portugal might be really a draw for those families?

Meghana: Yeah, well actually historically and even currently Lisbon, the capital of Portugal, is one of the most diverse cities in all of Europe. And as a country, I have noticed, because I've traveled through many places in Europe, there's just more of a presence of the African diaspora, people with darker skin than I would say in most other southern Europe, like Spain and Italy for sure. That was a big draw for us because when we came, it was like I saw people that look like my kids. Diversity there has been a big piece of why we chose it, and the safety piece. Safety is actually primary for many people of color that if you're living in cities and you're dealing with violence on a day-to-day, there's no comparison to living in Portugal having that ease on the streets. My teenage boy is walking independently to and from school and having a great social life and I don't think I would be able to do that in an urban center in the United States. I would not feel comfortable with him doing that.

Suzy: And don't think you could put a price tag on that level of safety and security, right? As a parent. But if someone wants to move to Portugal and they're thinking, I can just piece this together on my own. I don't need the move to Portugal support. What would you tell them?

Meghana: What I would say is like, yes, you can do it, cause we did it. And I wanna encourage anybody to make the move that believes they can. And there's a way to do it that can save you a lot of time and a lot of energy, effort, excessive amounts of money even. Because I think what happens is people trying to do it on their own end up spending a lot of time researching and not taking action. And so the real piece that I offer is that emotional support and guidance there because I will not let you just sit on this dream. I will not let you push it off any longer. It's meant to be realized and all of the things I teach, the quiet part of getting it done is following through on yourself. That's something I will not let you slack off on. But guess what? When you're on your own devices, you know, what's another year? What's another five years? And I think that's where people just kinda don't take the action.

Suzy: The accountability piece can be really helpful, not just the information, but also the let's keep moving forward towards our goals.

Meghana: Yeah, yeah. Making the decisions and following through.

Suzy: And you've spoken about the safety, the cost of living, the wonderful parts about living in Portugal. But I also know sometimes there are challenges and the realities of long term travel, long term moving abroad. What have those challenges looked like for you and your family? And then we'll also talk about the wins.

Meghana: Sure. The challenges, okay, of living in Portugal, I will say our infrastructure. There's no central heating and in the winters it does get quite cold, and in fact it gets colder inside your home and wet. So that has been a big issue keeping the home dry and ventilating so you don't get mold. And it's basically expect mold. And so it's mold management is what I tell people to expect it, but just be on it. Have your cleaner come and scrub it out and just pay attention to it. So the physical part is a drag. I find people are slightly aggressive on the road. They're really nice at the cafes and in person. But something about, I don't know, the aggressive driving culture at times, not everywhere. Other drawbacks. I mean, it is an older, poorer country traditionally, like scarcity has really crept into the mindset of many people in the older generation. So I think that's hard to deal with. Sometimes they don't see the opportunities and the beauty that exists, right here and in the moment. And sometimes it's hard as a business owner to partner with folks culturally. But I think it's changing a lot. It's changing quite fast, actually. Faster than I think some are ready for.

Suzy: That's true. It depends on the generation you're working with, right? And what have some of the positive parts been?

Meghana: The positives outweigh the negatives for sure, which is why I continue to choose this. I mean, just ease of getting around is it's such a small city and beautiful. It's just beautiful and inspiring to me. The geography is very just, you have nature and you have city and you have beaches within like a twenty minute drive. I think people are very family centric. They love children in society. There's just a lot of beautiful things about being here, the food, the quality of food, the diversity of the people, and being exposed again to language, which is why we're here too.

Suzy: Let's wrap up with the lightning round. Do you use packing cubes? You consider them essential or overrated?

Meghana: A little bit of both, right? I'm in the middle of packing right now cause we're traveling and so I'm using them right now. It's just nice. But it didn't stay organized as well as I'd like, I think, cause our stuff is just strewn across the floor right now. But when it's time to go, it gets nice and packed nice and it fits ish, you know, and it's tight little things and I get the kids involved. It's been helpful for them. It's like a game. They're like, hey, how much can you pack into these tiny tiny packs and they think it's fun?

Suzy: This is all the space you get, kids.

Meghana: Yeah, this is it. This is it. I live by them in a way when we travel. But it's during the in between. It's not really helpful.

Suzy: I don't know if there's any secret to not turning the living room of an Airbnb or whatever into an explosion when you first arrive and the suitcases open up. If there's a secret out there, someone in the audience, they need to let us know. What is your funniest travel mishap?

Meghana: Well just like last week, two weeks back, we were in Norway and we left a suitcase at the apartment. We're running to the train station on time. We had a driver. It was five AM anyway, so the driver was super kind. We got there to the train station. We have nineteen minutes before the train pulls out. And I noticed we don't have our bag, one of our bags. So I was cursing a little bit. The driver's like, let's go, let's do this. We can do this. Get in my car. I'll take you over there as fast as I can, as long as there's no police watching. And he had this beautiful electric kind of rocket ship kind of van. I don't know. So I got in, it was me and him. I got to know him. He got to know me because I think he was kind of calming my nervous system a little bit. Because I was like, I'm gonna miss this. I hadn't even thought of if I miss this train. I'm like, I'm just gonna get this bag. So he floored it. But he was like, we got a plan. This is our adventure for the day. And he was just like coaching me through it too. And he was like, we can do this and so he floored it and I could feel that acceleration, like we are going fast. I ran up and got the bag down in about a minute and so we had seven, eight minutes to get over there and then he's like, when you get there, pay me in the car right now. So I paid the transaction for his vehicle for the ride. But then he's like when I get there, if you need me, I'm gonna carry your bag for you so it can run faster. So you can run in front of me and I'll carry your bag. Well, you didn't need to because he got there with five minutes to spare. And he told me exactly which platform. So it was a great adventure and it worked out. If it hadn't, I don't know, it wouldn't be telling you the story right now, but it would have been very different.

Suzy: It would have been a very different travel mishap.

Meghana: Yes. But I was so proud of myself and I stayed calm and trusted him and that was hard. It worked out.

Suzy: Stuff happens. But it worked out. Now it's a funny adventure story in Norway.

Meghana: It is. And I appreciate so much. Aspen, thank you for that ride. You made it happen. That driver. Shout out.

Suzy: Shout out to the Norwegian taxi driver. Yeah. If people want to connect with you, they want to learn more about how they can move to Portugal or all the services you provide or even just want to ask questions about living in Portugal, how can they follow along on your adventure?

Meghana: Yeah. So follow me on @megna_in_portugal. That is my Instagram, but you can get all of my posts and all my social media and my service information on my website at www.megnakamdar.com. That's a great way to stay connected and join my mailing list and there have a ton of other resources, free downloads and stuff for you guys to get information on moving to Portugal as a family.

Suzy: The show notes so people can link over and follow along. But I really appreciate you sharing more about your family and your time in Portugal. Thank you.

Meghana: Yeah, thank you.